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Force powers


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Post Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:43 pm

Force powers

Ok so I was thinking about this and I'm not sure if we have something like this in place or not, but after the Mustafar incident I was thinking that maybe in addition to the banned force powers we should make a list of powers/rules associated with those powers that are available to different types of characters.

Meaning a list of powers divided up by what an NPC should be able to use depending on their alignment and 'rank'.

Banned Powers: These powers are disallowed in open RP.
Universal PC Powers: Available to both Dark and Lightside PC's with no special variant of fatigue.
Lightside PC Powers: Available to only Lightside PC's with no special variant of fatigue, Darksiders will be able to use them but with extra fatigue.
Darkside PC Powers: Available to only Darkside PC's with no special variant of fatigue, Lightsiders will be able to use them but with extra fatigue.
Universal NPC Powers: These powers are the only universal force powers available to any NPC
Lightside NPC powers: These powers are the only powers available to a Lightside NPC
Darkside NPC powers: These powers are the only powers available to a Darkside NPC

Now with the restrictions that we have on shapeshifting I don't think that this is too far of a stretch that we could implement something like this. And like shapeshifting we would only need to enforce it if it was reported. You might wonder why we would do something that isn't going to be enforced all the time and that reason is because when the occasional dispute about force powers does come up we can simply point to the rules and say that it is allowed or disallowed. It will cause us less hassle in the long run.

The other way this could be implemented is dividing powers into tiers. The saying PC of a certain level can have this many at this tier, this many at this tier, and so on. Down to NPCs.

Or we could keep this to NPCs only if we do decide on doing something like this, though I think the current rules:
[url=http://jedivsith.com/viewtopic.php?p=244030#p244030:35tiicr4]Subject: How to?... complete your character profile[/url:35tiicr4]

[quote="The Traveler's Guide":35tiicr4][size=150:35tiicr4]Weapons/Force Powers[/size:35tiicr4]
[list:35tiicr4][*:35tiicr4][i:35tiicr4]Current[/i:35tiicr4] policy is to use canon weapons/powers only.[/*:m:35tiicr4]
[*:35tiicr4][color=#FFFF00:35tiicr4]There is a general agreement among the players that these should be realistically RPd. It is expected that it takes a while to RP learning force powers and you would be met with a few queries if you decide to RP 'mastery of ten powers or more' when you first start.[/color:35tiicr4]
[/*:m:35tiicr4]
[*:35tiicr4][color=#FFFF00:35tiicr4]Mastering weapons use and force powers should be an ongoing part of character development not a way of trying to always win in a fight.[/color:35tiicr4]
[/*:m:35tiicr4]
[*:35tiicr4][color=#FFFF00:35tiicr4]Use an imaginative mix. Perhaps include some weapons/powers that you may become renowned for and some you are not so proficient at to give room for character development.[/color:35tiicr4]
[/*:m:35tiicr4]
[*:35tiicr4]Researching weapons and which force powers are connected to which side of the force, which are difficult and which are expected of a new character is part of the challenge of RPing in Star Wars. Researching and then 'learning' IC is going to be met with more respect than just turning up and saying you are super proficient at everything.
[/*:m:35tiicr4]
[*:35tiicr4]Your character may also be non force-sensitive and you could post this here.[/*:m:35tiicr4][/list:u:35tiicr4][/quote:35tiicr4]
Sound more like suggestions than rules.

This isn't to limit creativity but to expand it.
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Post Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: Force powers

This sounds like a good idea to me. It makes sense for someone who uses an opposite alignment power to be much more fatigued by it. The whole crossover thing is very controversial in and of itself, but that seems like a good compromise to me, since there are so many different interpretations to that sort of thing.

Like you said, if that proves to be too controversial, then we could always just stick to the NPCs. But I don't think it would be a problem as long as we aren't outright banning certain powers for PCs due to their alignment. lol
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Post Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:57 pm

Re: Force powers

I think that as interesting as this idea is as a thought exercise, it's far, far too complex as a practical activity. We need to leave it to NPCs only, and probably not focus too much on the Dark Side/Light Side. For a start, you get those various "JvS Greys" who would say that there's no limitation to them either which way, meaning we'd have to start limiting those too and so on, and it's just a big snowball effect, because we're never going to think of everything first time around. And if we didn't limit the "Greys", we'd be creating a larger problem and a larger gap between their lack of limits and people who do limit their talent pool.

Most people know that the Force Powers that are Light Side only can't be used by the Dark Side and vice versa - at most we should reiterate that some powers are inherently dark and some are like wise inherently light and people should exercise common sense in their use and implementation. Anything that requires concentration, calmness, peacefulness can't be used easily by the Darksiders.

The other issue here is that... well... your whole idea of fatigue and such really has no basis in Canon. Lightsiders don't get fatigued using Dark Side powers. They get corrupted, begin slipping toward the dark, but they don't get worn out by throwing lightening around any more than a Sith would. And Dark Siders don't get fatigued tossing typically Light Side powers around - they just can't access many of them, and those that they can access they can only do so at a very weak and shaky, inconsistent level, as their emotions disrupt and interrupt their focus and calm. The strain they might get is simply mental exhaustion from having to concentrate harder on something than usual, and that could be because of nearly anything.
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Post Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:05 pm

Re: Force powers

The usage of the Force and its limitations when it comes to the Sides has been a subject the GRPC tends to get every once and awhile, and my take on it has largely been unchanged:

[code:fn0hzbkq]By its very nature the Dark Side draws its power from anger, hate, and destructive thoughts. I don't think that most people could confidently call themselves a true Light Sider when they are using an ability that draws so heavily from the Dark Side. Light Siders using a Dark Side ability causes emotional and mental confliction because it requires them to draw upon a power source they have been trained to shun and avoid possibly their entire lives. It would go against their very nature.[/code:fn0hzbkq]

[quote:fn0hzbkq]We cannot have the best of both worlds and then proceed define ourselves by only a certain Side. Using abilities or differing Sides of the Force and achieving any expertise would require someone of a unique and strong willed mindset and training like Luke Skywalker. You can certainly use abilities of both Sides of the Force, but a Jedi is more likely to command greater power with Light Side abilities and a Sith is more likely to do so with Dark Side powers.[/quote:fn0hzbkq]

Generally we try to encourage players to try and use common sense and reasoning instead of adding additional rules. Some people complain already there are too many rules to remember.
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Post Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:06 am

Re: Force powers

The reason I brought up fatigue is because Lightsiders and Darksiders, shouldn't be able to use the opposite side of the force in my opinion, even if we look at canon and they could there in certain cases the general rule here is that no character can be as powerful as a canon character...or at least that's how it was a while back. I simply used fatigue for lack of a better word at the time.

What I was getting at was something like this, and I'll cover Greys too.

Lightsiders can use lightside powers as normal, darkside powers for 2 posts with moderate effect and need 4 posts of recovery (not using the power) before they can be used again.
Darksiders can use darkside powers as normal, lightside powers for 2 posts with moderate effect and need 4 posts of recovery (not using the power) before they can be used again.
Greys can use lightside and darkside powers for 2 posts with moderate effect and need 3 posts of recovery (not using the power) before they can be used again. (Since they have no alignment and can use both sides it would level the playing field a bit)
NPC's would have the same rules (perhaps a slight alteration of the numbers), there would just be powers that NPCs can't use at all.

Now this is just an example of something we could do, yes it's a game mechanic, and yes I know this is a writing site, but there are gamers here.
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Post Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:34 am

Re: Force powers

I like the idea as a thought exercise, but it's still far too rigid for practical application - in the GBA, where things are quire rigidly applied, I think that would work really well, but in open RP? Well, with Dav, I never use Dark Side powers, so this wouldn't ever affect me - he avoids them because he knows first hand that you can't play with those powers and just use them light heartedly without some very real consequences. However, if I did, it'd be very very difficult to actually measure, because I don't structure my posts as formally as would be necessary for this rule to be applied. Different writing styles post in different fashions and with different paces, and so two posts for one person could be the same as five posts for another, or one post for the other, depending on the circumstances. So then you're going to be really upsetting the flow of things for people who, like me, take a completely non-gamer approach to writing our posts, opting for flowing narratives and cliff-hangers and such, rather than orderly, structured tactical descriptions. And although most of us are agreed that the Dark Side and the Light Side are like Chalk and Cheese, and that one used by the other doesn't work, there are still chars whose characters are much like, say, Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast (and able to learn powers from both sides), and, developing from that, characters who are Potentium believers, or characters who just straddle that line. We don't all like them, but they do exist, both in JvS and, too a lesser extent, within canon, and with these rules, they would literally have no powers they could use without any kind of restriction.

And then, we have the characters whose writers actually acknowledge and accept the issue regarding the Dark Side and the Light Side, but want to show that their characters are angry and are beginning to slip - how are they supposed to handle it? Penalising them for what is probably a turning point in their character's development, and dictating how they want to play that particular change in the moment, seems somehow not quite right.

And again, Canon evidence does not support the limitations you're suggesting. Someone who gives in to their anger can, in canon, use Dark Side powers without having to pause for breath afterwards. That's part of the reason the Dark Side is so seductive in the first place - because it's so easy to use without apparent side effects or obvious disadvantage. Not being able to use powers without having to take a break afterwards... when you mean recovery time, are you talking about that particular power? Or all powers?

There are just too many variables with Force use in JvS, far too many, for us to possibly come up with a regulation that would cover all eventualities, and do so without becoming entirely too strict for people who are completely non-gamer.

Again, I really think we should just concentrate on defining the limits of NPC abilities. I think fully limiting all Force Power usage like this, especially when there isn't any kind of major cry for such a big change, is going well beyond our remit.
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Post Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Force powers

I am in agreement that we need to further discuss and possibly set restrictions on the powers an NPC can use (Keep in mind that we already have regulations on what "level" NPCs can be), but I think that setting the type of restrictions that are being suggested falls under a councilor who is being slightly over-zealous in his attempt to cut out the Sithspit.

Ade, I admire your drive to make things less BS-filled and more fun to just write. However, I feel that this is a step towards being overly-restrictive. Which might lead more players to leave the Players' Guild, not that its a bad thing. But people shouldn't leave because we drive them away with too many regulations.

In a nutshell, I agree with Dav on this one.
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Post Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:07 pm

Re: Force powers

Perhaps it has escaped my notice due to my limited time, but have we had an increase in players claiming to use abilities that go against their philosophies? The last time that I have heard any mention of the Force in this type of setting was Garwig's thread about exploring game mechanics and attempts at mimicking abilities via opposing Sides of the Force. I support wanting to take a preemptive stance against potential problems, but I haven't heard of many at all aside from the occasional person grumbling about "Gray Jedi" without mentioning any names. I don't want to be enacting rules when there is no signs for needing them.

However, expanding on the details behind capabilities of NPCs would be a good idea because they are a "game play mechanic" where players do not have a source to draw from as opposed to PC using abilities in which players can simply look to canon.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:15 am

Re: Force powers

Like I said, it was just an idea and I see the problem with it, which is why I said we didn't have to enforce it strictly. It was merely an idea that we could use to say "It's against the rules" or "It's not against the rules" when someone came to us whining over how the force was used. Personally I like the thought of the Force being able to do all things, but I don't RP force users much so this whole thing wouldn't affect me save for one character who quite frankly has been overpowered since I started on 1.0. Anyway enforcing it strictly or at all outside of complaints would probably be pretty impossible. But I digress.

I still think we should make a list of powers that NPCs can't use.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:04 am

Re: Force powers

Agreed, Player Character only powers, and powers that are limited to Master level NPC Generals only, would be a good idea. We had a discussion with Garwig a while back regarding his Duinuogwuin NPC that would be a good place to start.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:23 am

Re: Force powers

Speaking of NPC generals I did have an idea for faction bonuses that I'd like to discuss later too. Don't worry, it's no restrictions but an alternative bonus, but it is something that we might need to work on with the GSTC. We'll do this first and then I'll post it up. For now lets get that list started.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Re: Force powers

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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:28 pm

Re: Force powers

Thought Bomb IS illegal, but under the Superweapon Rules, not the Force Power rules.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:07 pm

Re: Force powers

TK Kill has been discussed recently, I believe. I can't recall where, but I'll find it later.

Deadly Sight... I'm inclined to agree, seems a bit Overpowered and easily abused as a power, but I've not considered it too much (save the one time I fought someone who used it and I opted to set off a Flashbang in their face).

Beam of Light has the pleasant side effect of being a suicide attack, and also seeming to be limited to one species - one that isn't oft-played, as far as I've seen. I'm content in leaving it as is until we see some kind of abuse or, heck, even a use of it.

The only Force Power I'd outright disagree with being PC only is Alter Mind. Alter Mind is, essentially, Mind Trick, which is one of the Cornerstones of Jedi powers. Limiting it from use by NPC Jedi seems somehow similar to limiting Telekinesis, or Speed. Player Characters are defended, of course, by the "No NPC is as potentially powerful as a PC" rule, which although perhaps a bit varied for most situations, can be pretty set for Mind Trick and Will-power purposes.

The other one I'd suggest a change to is Force Meld. I would say, instead of complete limitation to Player Character only, limit it to only NPC Generals, which are Jedi Master level characters, and Player Characters.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Force powers

The reason I said Alter Mind is because while it is essentially Mind Trick, it seems to be a much more powerful version of it. Mind Trick is something that can be used on the weak minded to influence their decisions, Alter Mind seems to be able to influence even jedi to the point of turning to the darkside.

And with Force Meld this quote from wookieepedia is what caused me to put it on there

[quote:nk9t7ijw]Force Meld took a Master of great power and depth in the Force to create such a single entity state without killing or destroying the minds of everyone involved[/quote:nk9t7ijw]
It really seems like something that only a PC should be able to preform.
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Post Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Force powers

Eh, maybe some powers need separating out into sub-powers
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Post Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:45 pm

Re: Force powers

- Now that I see it, Dimension Shift should probably be an ability that we should be reviewing as to whether or not it should be restricted entirely because it bears a close resemblance to Force Travel/rifting.

- Cryokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Plant Surge (partially Light Side) would fall under Alter Environment. Alter Environment for the most part is just manipulating the elements and nature with telekinesis.

- Force Enlightenment is an ability that is available to only Light Siders on a Master level usually, so it should probably be a PC only ability.

- Lightning Storm is far too powerful for an NPC and even apprentice level PCs. From what I remember, it involves using Force Lightning on multiple opponents.

Those are the only things that stuck out on the list for me.
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Post Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:24 am

Re: Force powers

- Agreed on Dimension Shift. It's related to the Aing-Ti travel powers, and that, to me, seems a no go.

- Again, agreed on Cryo/Pyro/Plant Surge being Alter Environment.

- Force Enlightenment is pure and out Game Mechanic, and is simply a game mechanic method of demonstrating the Wisdom and additional skill/power that a Jedi Master gains with time and experience. I think we should probably highlight that somewhere.

- Agreed on Lightening Storm


I feel that a lot of the powers on this list are simply Game Mechanic versions of other powers (which we recently discussed in depth with Garwig). I think to clarify this, we should probably, beside those powers, simply have the phrase See ___, with the second word being the non-game-mechanic version of that power.

At some point, probably later today, I'll cross-reference this list with that discussion with Garwig.
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Post Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:41 am

Re: Force powers

I also feel like some powers should only be partially restricted, not fully restricted. (Incidentally, I didn't spot your Mind Trick separately further down, and it's distinction as a unique power, so never mind on that one.)

So, basically, I think this list needs four levels of limitation. Fully restricted, Restricted to NPC Generals/Jedi Masters only, Partially Restricted to weaker power uses only, Non-restricted. That way a Jedi can still have access to some of the less extreme elements of any given power without people trying to use the top end skills associated with it.
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Post Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:34 am

Re: Force powers

I've been dividing them up into categories (Precog, healing, attack, and so on) and a lot of them overlap. I have been thinking seeing some that are specialization powers such as those that can only be learned through the Nightsisters, Fallanassi, or the Sorcerers of Rhand. I think those should probably be restricted to having experience in those groups since they were only taught to people deemed worthy by those groups in canon, much like the Mandos have their beskar, it makes them unique.

Also I was thinking that we could probably have assumed powers, every Jedi knows TK or TP among others, instead of listing those as top ten powers and wasting the space. I think we could have those in a list of assumed powers.

And since some of the powers overlap, rather than listing them in categories I'm thinking of color coding them into tiers, probably 1-4 as Dav suggested. I'll post what I have soon and then we can tear it apart.
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