Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:19 pm by Dav Man'Sell
[quote="Saber Windu":24h636m4]
that was simply in rearguards to the guild and reporting people ....i am clearly not out here making my own laws and such ...i simply disagree with common players making decisions ...such organizations over time breed corruptions it put power in the hands of few in not the common rper (with in my personal belief proper reputation from the different fractions) ...i think you misunderstood what i was saying [/quote:24h636m4]
I'll conceed that point... I [i:24h636m4]did[/i:24h636m4] misunderstand you. Now I get you, so sorry for that.
Is this system, though, not the method of democratic processes, by which most countries in the 'free' world operate? Is that not the definition of the American Dream? Of the democracy that Britain's political system up holds? Of almost all governments and other such organisations? The newer Whills around these days are, for the most part, drawn from the old-guard of long-time players, the ones that have been around forever or have been involved, positively, forever. We might not know for certain WHICH players they are, but we know that the first stop for new Whills will be the self-same Guild and Councillors you are choosing to ignore -- and it IS necessary to use them, because New Whills are not drawn out of thin-air.
[quote="Saber Windu":24h636m4]i am not close minded or mean and altho my writing skill may be weak i am far from an idiot....i am not e sensitive and think thing said IC or done so IC and are not personal attack on the given person behind the character ...if that is no longer the law of the land and people are going to take things IC personally then people should simply clarify that what ever it hurts the "feelings "...i thought this was a game[/quote:24h636m4]
I do owe you a small appology on my part there. My last post in this regard was a little harsh. A small level of frustration crept in, and I said some things slightly out of line, so for suggesting that you were (I believe the phrase was) "Not too bright", I'm truly very sorry.
However, on the point itself, you have completely ignored one of my main points. Your point of view here, whilst logical, is wrong, just because people clearly have been offended. It's not always easy to speak up and say "You're offending me, please stop saying that" especially when -- AS YOU HAVE CONFESSED TO BEING A VICTIM OF YOURSELF -- people on this site have a history of being rude, aggressive, and down right manipulative and evil when they are challenged. Cyber-bullying happens, and just like with real bullies, standing up to them and saying "no, don't do that" is not easy to do when you are on the receiving end. That it was a confident and strong-willed individual that COULD have managed to do so is irrelevant. The point is, she shouldn't have had to.
So yes, where as there is logic in the fact that it was "IC and not OOC", you also have to acknowledge that logic is rarely applicable when it comes to emotions, especially when there is a very loud and visible portion of the RPing community here that WILL say IC something they mean in an OOC capacity, and bring to their OOC interactions IC rivalry. That line is blurred by a lot of people in this game, and you calling her what you did constantly, repeatedly, with little variation and taking every opportunity to DO so, looks a LOT like one of the people that do that. I'm not saying you WERE -- but it looks EXACTLY like it. From my very very brief conversation with Arhiia's player -- VERY very brief -- I get an impression that she felt some of that IC Insult transferred over to the OOC PMs.
The other thing, that is most important here, that you broke one of the main rules of this website. One of the most important rules that you agreed to by becoming a member -- by circumventing the profanity filter. It is there for a reason, and deliberately writing the word you used in such a way as to get around it like that IS a MAJOR breach of regulations.
[quote="Saber Windu":24h636m4]and would it have been so hard to ask me to explain my post or provide more detail ...i am only asking for the same respect i showed her [/quote:24h636m4]
Again, from my brief conversation with her, I gather she did. I see no reason why she would lie or mislead me about that, especially since it was before she even decided she was pulling out. I'm not saying you deliberately ignored that, or anything, I am perfectly willing to chalk it up to frustration and misunderstanding, but I do not think it fair to
[quote="Saber Windu":24h636m4]i understand what you are saying .... i am saying there should have been steps before this public argument .... what happen to players trying to work it out among them self before calling other to help ... // ...small things i do are always blown out of proportions and put out as an "example " to other before any one takes step one and trys to work it out in a pm 1st.[/quote:24h636m4]
Clearly, then you [i:24h636m4]don't[/i:24h636m4] understand what I am saying, then. As I was making a concerted effort at communicating to you before, this is not a Public [i:24h636m4][b:24h636m4]Argument[/b:24h636m4][/i:24h636m4]. I am not [i:24h636m4][b:24h636m4]arguing [/b:24h636m4][/i:24h636m4]with you, I am [i:24h636m4][b:24h636m4]reasoning [/b:24h636m4][/i:24h636m4]with you. Apart from the brief spot of vented frustration that I have already apologised for - and I am truly sorry - I am approaching this calmly and collectedly. This is exactly the same, [i:24h636m4]manno-ah-manno[/i:24h636m4] conversation I would have had with you via PM, trying to figure it out, but I have chosen to have that [i:24h636m4]exact same conversation[/i:24h636m4] on a [i:24h636m4]public[/i:24h636m4] forum, for the sake of [i:24h636m4]every[/i:24h636m4] player involved, so that [i:24h636m4]every[/i:24h636m4] player can see, CLEARLY, what we are saying to each other, and there is no mystery about what was said in the PMs to each other. I don't understand why you are object to this, because it is exactly the same conversation we would have had privately. If you look at the replies -- with the EXCEPTION of people saying "yes I agree" and not commenting otherwise, it is mostly the case that the only two people actually engaging IN this conversation are you and I. So it is exactly like a PM conversation, with the exception that it is not private, and that is because I do not want to be secretive about it (in fact, I feel being private about it would be worse, as it would MORE LIKELY lead to a argument) and because there are several other players who have also expressed concerns, so I chose to do it publicly so that they may all at least see what was said. In fact, I'll say this now:
[size=150:24h636m4][color=#FF0000:24h636m4]I WOULD ASK EVERYONE HERE [i:24h636m4]NOT[/i:24h636m4] TO RESPOND TO THIS PARTICULAR DISCUSSION UNLESS SPECIFICALLY INVITED TO DO SO, OR ASKING IF IT IS OK TO DO SO FIRST...[/color:24h636m4][/size:24h636m4]
Read it, digest it, post your own things on this thread, but let the conversation here between me and Saber be [i:24h636m4]exactly that[/i:24h636m4]. Between us, just with open and transparent visibility and no secrecy, for now. Please. Not an order, but a request. Thank you.
Let me be quite clear; I'm not calling others to help. I am responding to what I perceived to be a situation already raised on these boards, and doing so because I have hope that I can help to resolve it amicably.
[quote="Saber Windu":24h636m4]you can not understand how i feel on this because you do not know what i have had to deal with on this site in the past 3 mouths .... // ...and although you say you are not being judgmental to me its the same old thing when i rp on jedi worlds[/quote:24h636m4]
Let me [i:24h636m4]assure[/i:24h636m4] you, that this is [i:24h636m4]not[/i:24h636m4] being pre-judgemental at all. I don't [i:24h636m4]know[/i:24h636m4] your reputation. Only your name, which I have often heard mentioned. And from what I see within the posts on the boards, everyone made a concerted effort to include you and RP with you. If they had been being pre-judgemental, they wouldn't have waited until after they had RP'd with you for a while to begin reacting negatively towards you.
And also, I would like to highlight the slight [i:24h636m4]hypocrisy[/i:24h636m4] in your statement there. You straight away made the unfounded judgement of me that I was pre-judging you. That I was affected by your reputation, and that all/most/these Jedi Players would automatically judge you according to it and would base their reactions off that. That in itself is exactly the same crime which you accuse me/us/them of.
You also make another unwarranted assumption.
[i:24h636m4][color=#FFFF00:24h636m4]"you [b:24h636m4]can not understand[/b:24h636m4] how i feel on this because you do not know what i have had to deal with on this site in the past 3 mouths"[/color:24h636m4][/i:24h636m4]
Firstly, how do you know I don't? How do you know I have not read the other boards and posts out there in the Galaxy, and interpreted them as exactly that? Where as it IS true, that in fact, I do not know the [i:24h636m4]facts[/i:24h636m4], and I [i:24h636m4]haven't[/i:24h636m4] read those posts, I [i:24h636m4]might-just-well[/i:24h636m4] have, and you had no-way to know that.
Secondly, you assume that I have not been through similar circumstances and faced similar behaviour. I have had similar such reactions on here, and although not to the same level as you suggest you have, you are wrong to presume you're the only one that has faced that kind of pre-disposed prejudice towards you.
And thirdly, even if I had not faced a similar thing, you are quite wrong that I CAN NOT understand it. I'm currently undertaking training in Counselling, and it's something that I am DOING because I have been [i:24h636m4]often [/i:24h636m4]identified by both renowned and respected experts in the field and other, non-experts and "normal" people, as having a natural affinity for. One of the key parts of that training and natural affinity is having [i:24h636m4]exactly[/i:24h636m4] that ability, to understand something and understand and fully comprehend the feelings of others despite not having been in their situation. Even when their reactions are unusual, different, and even completely opposite to the common-place reactions, part of that training involves learning how to [i:24h636m4]understand [/i:24h636m4]that. That [i:24h636m4]empathy [/i:24h636m4]is one of my strongest character traits. It's not perfect or eternally flawless, but it DOES give me [i:24h636m4]exactly[/i:24h636m4] the ability to do what you say that I [i:24h636m4]can not[/i:24h636m4] do. Mix that in with training in reading and trying to understand subtexts and the 'hidden truths' that aren't always obvious in the post, and I am actually the [i:24h636m4]exact[/i:24h636m4] person [i:24h636m4]to[/i:24h636m4] be able to understand your feelings, reasons, and meanings.
Now, with all YOUR points answered, I really need to highlight one of my own. It is very important, and you just plain have to accept it. You just do, because it really is the one that will be the point at which this can turn into an argument if you don't.
You have not once tried to respond diplomatically. You've been polite, yes, and where you have been, I am grateful and I thank you. But there has been no negotiation or attempt to make a diplomatic gesture - in short, at no point have you actually attempted to give us something to PREVENT this from getting worse and becoming an argument.
And what I mean by [i:24h636m4]that[/i:24h636m4] is that you have plain, and stubbornly, refused to admit that you were at all in the wrong; about any of your IC actions, about your OOC conduct, about your decisions... any of it. It seems very clear that you have not even considered it, and you definitely have not offered any kind of apology, when people are clearly upset by your actions. There is no smoke without fire. People don't get upset for no reason. All you have offered have been excuses, and those 'excuses' have clearly not been received as satisfactory, but yet, you make no effort to try and change them.
What I would ask of you is to go back, think over some of your actions, look over some of your IC posts, and accept where and when you did something wrong. Accept some responsibility for your side of this dispute, and not just try to palm them off with "You should have done this/PM'd me and told me/not done that". Start coming back with "Yes... perhaps you are right, I should have tried to do this/I went to far with that/I needed to explain that better, and it is [b:24h636m4]my fault there[/b:24h636m4], not yours/hers/theirs."
And then, I'd ask you to apologise, genuinely, for those points where you ARE responsible. I'm by no means suggesting that it is only acceptable if you agree with me on EVERYTHING -- though I would like that, I don't expect anyone to have to do so -- but you do need to concede something, because you ARE NOT BLAMELESS in this - and you really, really aren't - , and yet, currently, that is the only thing I seem to be able to read from your responses.
I hope you do respond positively to this, because I actually want to resolve this fairly and peacefully with you.